For LEO's duty weapon possibility?

[Station 3]

Ok well i was thinking do you guys think the FN HERSTAL 5.7x28mm pistol would be good as a duty weapon? I mean most criminals are getting smart now a days and carrying body armor and most of us carry the .40 as our primary duty weapon ammo which is what i also carry. I carry a Springfield XD Compact .40 and use standard issue Border Patrol Ammo that i get from my cousin which is a BP agent. Keep in mind that i am a Texas Peace Officer in a small town very close to the Mexican border and thats why im considering the 5.7x28mm pistol over my traditional pistol because of the threat of border violence and i think i need a little extra punch. Let me know what u all think i would love the advise from all the LEO's out there.


By the way this weapon will be bought on my own due to our PD not assigning us weapons. We use our own weapons and ammo.

 

[rwo978]

My $.02..... NO.... Reasoning:


While the criminal factor doesn't give a crap where their bullets go, we have to be responsible for each one that we throw downrange. The carnage factor from that round I don't think is worth the risk of finding that one turd who managed to find a vest. That's why we practice body armor drills.... unless if you're in NY, then you're just screwed, since you're not supposed to "shoot to kill." :roll: :lol:


We worry about overpentration and use frangible rounds to counteract this. Not to mention, the 'media factor' of using this weapon as standard duty issue. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for superior firepower... in certain situations. But, I don't think it's needed 24/7.


Hell, given the choice of grabbing the AR or the 870 from the squad, I'm gonna go with the 870 9/10 times. I don't want to be that person that had a stray rifle round cut thru someone's house, overpentrate, and catch some kid sleeping. And, I only say this as the 'human factor', as we're all human and no where near perfect. Shit happens, and it's gonna happen at the worst possible time, when you're stressed and at the edge. That's when the training should kick in and you go with you're training. I'm just more comfortable with that 870 than the AR.

 

[Station 3]

Thats what i kinda was afraid of the over penetration of that FN HERSTAL round. I am the only officer in my whole police department that carries a secondary gun a 870 tactical shot gun which is frekin crazy. Everyone around here thinks that there side arm is the only thing they need for every situation. But thanks for the .2 cents man its very well appreciated

 

[RJ*]

I mean most criminals are (...) carrying body armor

Seriosly? Over 50%?

Keep in mind that i am a Texas Peace Officer in a small town very close to the Mexican border and (...) because of the threat of border violence and i think i need a little extra punch.

Best thing you can do: Make sure your comms work. Let me say that again: Make sure your comms work. No amount of firepower will make up for failures in that area.

 

[Stendec]

They are great guns, but have a really limited niche. Unless you can partner it up with a P90, it isn't worth the hassle you'll have in reliably getting duty rounds for it, which are limited to LE sales only. While you obviously could get them, a lot of distributors don't want to screw around with small orders, and the duty ammo is considerably more costly than the commercially available ammo, which is something to think about when it comes to testing the weapon for reliability, qualifications and training. Armorer support might be a little sketchy, also - the average pawnshop/gunstore "gunsmith" is probably not going to have the knowledge or parts to service it.


"Most" hoods aren't wearing body armor, which is handily defeated anyway by the patrol rifle you ought to be carrying and that would be a more useful, practical tool.


I'm not aware of over-penetration issues with the ball, practice 5.7 round that's commercially available, but I understand that the wound characteristics aren't very impressive, as it carries the muzzle energy of a .22 magnum and the light, sharp bullet essentially makes an icepick style wound channel.


The XD is a great gun, the .40 has stopped plenty of fights, if you do your part, they will do theirs. If you want a step up in horsepower, the.357 SIG should be a consideration. Your TX DPS carries it, as does the USSS and a couple other fed agencies and I've heard nothing but good things about it. Unfortunately, your BP friend wont be able to purloin ammo for it for you, and it is pricey, but I'll forgo some luxuries for decent ammo. I'm pretty sure the XD is chambered for it.

 

[NPS Ranger]

I am the only officer in my whole police department that carries a secondary gun a 870 tactical shot gun which is frekin crazy.

You CARRY it? Everywhere? Like a backup piece? What do you do when you go hands-on with someone?

If you want a step up in horsepower, the.357 SIG should be a consideration. Your TX DPS carries it, as does the USSS and a couple other fed agencies and I've heard nothing but good things about it.

Whether in wheelgun or auto, the .357 has proven to be the gold standard in anti-personnel handguns.


Let the flames begin.

 

[Fast LT1]

Here ya go!

Could always go with a glock chambered in .50 gi

 

[RolnCode3]

I haven't shot the FN, but I do find the concept intruiging. A few things I see in this thread that I think the OP should do some more research on before discounting or proceeding:


1) In my experience, the .223 controlled expansion round is one of the last rounds I'd be worried about overpenetration with. I have seen .223 rounds shot into ballistic gelatin, and all of the handgun rounds we shot had deeper penetration than the .223 round. If the FN has controlled expansion rounds (not the ball ammunition) I'd be surprised if there were issues with deep penetration.


2)While a 12gauge 1oz. slug has high energy, a buckshot round will have you wondering where pellets went far faster than the FN (the old 1inch/yard spread = missing pellets at more than 20 yards or so). Also, the slug is probably going to retain energy and mass and continue penetrating after the FN or .223 rounds have broken up.


It sounds like your environment might be a good candidate for the FN. Big bonus on large capacity magazines as well.

 

[SSgt Elmer]

There's really no reason to carry a 5-7 as a duty pistol. The round brings nothing to the table you can't get with more readily available rounds.

 

[tcfd823]

At the S.O, we're required to carry either Glock 22 or Glock 23. Both are cool, but i prefer S&W

 

[Station 3]

You CARRY it? Everywhere? Like a backup piece? What do you do when you go hands-on with someone?


Whether in wheelgun or auto, the .357 has proven to be the gold standard in anti-personnel handguns.


Let the flames begin.[/quote:15kdp6gd]


No i dont mean i carry it like with me in a sling on my back like some cowboy at all times :lol: I ment to say i am the only officer that gets it from the weapons locker and actually loads it and places it in my secured shot gun rack in my patrol car. Everyone else is to lazy or just forget to pick up the shot gun from the locker in the begining of the shift.

 

[Station 3]

Ok let me show you guys what we have to be worried about down here in South Texas.


First this shooting happend about 6 miles away from my town.

This video shows several Police units that got ambushed as they were trying to get to the police station to back up the fellow officers getting shot at in the police station. They were ambushed with fully automatic weapons and granade launchers.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltXTHmvH ... re=related


Ok now do you understand my concern when you work for a police department and your on routine patrol and you can hear granades and machine gun fire coming from about a city block away accross the border. Its a whole other animal down here boys and girls just because you dont see this on CNN does not mean its not happening

 

[UndercoverVLS]

Im neither for or against, just stating some thoughts....maybe in rural areas, but probably anywhere with moderate population it would be a no go. Plus how many rounds can a pistol with that ammo hold?, especially in rural areas where backup might not be too close, thats something to think about. Im not a huge gun buff but even as a high velocity round (im assuming) wouldnt a 9mm/40/45 (or most common LE calibers) hollowpoints have more "stopping power"


and usually if perps are wearing vests, i think at that point that would be the least of the worries. usually vest come along with a crazy plan and big weapons, at least when they are planning on going up against law enforcement.

 

[Jarred J.]

they dont make bullet proof hats

 

[RJ*]

Ok let me show you guys what we have to be worried about down here in South Texas.

First this shooting happend about 6 miles away from my town.


This shooting happend across the border in Mexico about a 10 min drive away from the PD i use to work for near the Mexican Border. (Shooting starts around 34 seconds in the video) Oh and the Cartel members were firing back with 40mm granade launchers and RPGs at the Mexican Federal Police.


This Shooting happend also in Mexico about a 45 min drive away from the PD i use to work for next to the Mexican Border. ( this video shows what happens when about 40 armed gun men from the Mexican drug cartel shoot up a police station and take out an entire police department including ems personel. They also use Granade launchers and take out several police cars)


This video shows several Police units that got ambushed as they were trying to get to the police station to back up the fellow officers getting shot at in the police station. They were ambushed with fully automatic weapons and granade launchers.


Ok now do you understand my concern when you work for a police department and your on routine patrol and you can hear granades and machine gun fire coming from about a city block away accross the border. Its a whole other animal down here boys and girls just because you dont see this on CNN does not mean its not happening

Don't you still have the Border Patrol between yourself and the Mexicans? Have you had incidents where these shootings have actually crossed onto your side of the border?

 

[kinnelonfire75]

Border patrol can't be everywhere...sadly.

 

[Station 3]

They have not fired at us at my jurisdiction but at other parts of the Rio Grande Valley they have been fired upon by the cartels. Once they are seen and attempted to be stoped by Law Enforcement they usually evade and crash there vehicles into the river and swim accross where they usually fire upon the officers or aim there weapons at them from the Mexican side. This has not happend to me and i am damn greatfull of that. They did give us permission to return fire into Mexico if such an event were to take place. In one part of the valley around an hour drive from my old PD a Military Helicopter from the Mexican Marines crossed over and hovered over some residential areas for around an hour and a half in the United States side which was frekin wierd and scary if u ask me :?

 

[Jarred J.]

so why havent we invaded mexico to stop these "terrorists"

 

[Mark C.]

The 5.7 LE ammo is only available to the Department directly, they will not sell to individual officers, so if your Dept. won't buy you ammo you're out of luck. As others have said I'd go with .357 SIG, excellent duty round.

 

[Station 3]

My police chief is fine with ordering the weapon as long as we qualify with it he said im sure he wont have a problem with ordering the ammo either as long as we pay the city back for the costs. A couple of other officers also agree with me and are thinking of getting the pistol. Im not gonna get it soon since the price tag on that baby is a grand or more and i gots bills to pay. :lol:

 

[Station 3]

so why havent we invaded mexico to stop these "terrorists"

Well the video states that the Armed Mexican Helicopter was over the Texas homes for only 15 min so i guess they are correct and not me i thought it was an hour and half.


Video of the news report with pictures of the chooper


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHGgFgTiyWw

 

[Stendec]

My police chief is fine with ordering the weapon as long as we qualify with it he said im sure he wont have a problem with ordering the ammo either as long as we pay the city back for the costs. A couple of other officers also agree with me and are thinking of getting the pistol. Im not gonna get it soon since the price tag on that baby is a grand or more and i gots bills to pay. :lol:

"Pay the city back." Wow. I've had to pay for my own stuff in the past, but making you pay for your own ammo is like making you pay for the report forms you write or the gas in your cruiser.


I can see having a guy pay reimbursement if they exceed an allowance, but that just ain't right.

 

[FreshDave04]

"Pay the city back." Wow. I've had to pay for my own stuff in the past, but making you pay for your own ammo is like making you pay for the report forms you write or the gas in your cruiser.


I can see having a guy pay reimbursement if they exceed an allowance, but that just ain't right.

We kind of have the same issue, here. All LEO's in the city are issued Sig Sauer P229 .40's. The city provides the duty ammunition and enough for one qualification, per year. If you desire/need to qualify more than once, the ammo costs are on the officer.

 

[Bonanno]

If I could carry Off-Duty I'd carry either a Sig in .357 or .40. The .40 cause of the availability of ammo and its a great round, and the .357 for its stopping power yet still keeps recoil and weight down with high ammo capacity.

 

[Station 3]

Yeah down here in South Texas you have to provide yourself with your entire uniform duty belt ammo gun and incredibly even your badge which is usually one of those generic Texas Peace Officer Badges you order online. But that was at around 50% of the departments down here some and i say "Some" departments do issue you out all your equipment but that is for the huge departments that you have to know someone on the inside to get in which is sad. My small department you need to provide yourself with everything except a badge which is given to you oh and yeah they gave me a tactical vest thats about it. Oh and also the pay sucks might as well work at burger king while your at it. :lol: Well at least they have nice units that the government gave us i drive a decked out crownvic which in my opinion has to many blinkies since it has a led light bar on top and also a whelen inner edge plus a 4 head dominator in the back and about 8 hide away strobes all around. And a 2010 Black and white tahoe which will be decked out by MEVS06 pretty soon gonna have whelen led bar on top a total of 8 four head dominators a crap load of whelen vertexs and alot of other goodies which i dont remember.

 

[JohnMarcson]

Based on it's very design this pistol is a poor choice for a primary LE side arm. A standard side arm and a specialized rifle are a better choice. If they have vests, they also have rifles. Never bring only a pistol to a rifle fight. Get a nice scout rifle.


Just my non-LE personal thoughts

 

[kadetklapp]

As a cop and a gun enthusiast, I feel I should chime in.


I see "why" you want such a round and capacity available to you in the area in which you are working. If it's as bad as you say it is, and if it's somewhat desolate, and you can afford the ammo to PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE with, then I say GO FOR IT.


If you just want to carry a cool gun and don't have the money or time to spend on diligently working the gun at the range to make SURE you can get the rounds where they need to go (and not over-penetrate) then forget it. Go with a .357 Sig.

 

[TX-LEO]

Ok well i was thinking do you guys think the FN HERSTAL 5.7x28mm pistol would be good as a duty weapon? I mean most criminals are getting smart now a days and carrying body armor and most of us carry the .40 as our primary duty weapon ammo which is what i also carry. I carry a Springfield XD Compact .40 and use standard issue Border Patrol Ammo that i get from my cousin which is a BP agent. Keep in mind that i am a Texas Peace Officer in a small town very close to the Mexican border and thats why im considering the 5.7x28mm pistol over my traditional pistol because of the threat of border violence and i think i need a little extra punch. Let me know what u all think i would love the advise from all the LEO's out there.




By the way this weapon will be bought on my own due to our PD not assigning us weapons. We use our own weapons and ammo.

NO, use a Glock 22 .40 or 9mm version. Over penetration by 5.7 is NOT good.


As as backup or SHTF gun for your duty bag, sure. Primary, No.

 

[Stendec]

Get a nice scout rifle.

There is a crapload of good reasons for going with the Scout concept, particularly if you have any distance to cover. Properly set up, you could hit anything you could see, and drop anything you hit solidly.. The light Savages and Remingtons aren't hyper-expensive, and the FN patrol rifle looks neat. In your environment, the Springfield Scout Squad or SOCOM could be just the ticket, and a M1A Loaded model would buy you real estate out to 800 yards at least with the right glass if you want serious punchage. Yeah, they can run huge dollars, but it's a better investment than cheap women and expensive liquor in the long run.

 

[11b101abn]

For the duty weapon question: I vote either Glock 17/19 or22/23.


Off the shelf reliability and go-bang-ed-ness. A fine rack grade sidearm for any officer.


Long gun: Dependent on your experience i would not , not , not go w/ a bolt action weapon of any type unlesss you are a shooter for your dept.The M4 family is the standard, M1A is good, but can require some tuning to bring it to it's full potential.


On training: eff the dept. Seeking training and maintaining proficiency is YOUR responsibility. Drop some coin on getting the best training you can.Pat Rogers(EAG tactical), Kyle Lamb(Viking Tactics), Paul Howe (CSAT), Thunder Ranch are all fooking good to goddamn go.


PS, your dept sounds like it has it's head in the sand on the gunfighting isuue. Maybe seeking employment elsewhere is the tickey.

 

[Station 3]

There is a crapload of good reasons for going with the Scout concept, particularly if you have any distance to cover. Properly set up, you could hit anything you could see, and drop anything you hit solidly.. The light Savages and Remingtons aren't hyper-expensive, and the FN patrol rifle looks neat. In your environment, the Springfield Scout Squad or SOCOM could be just the ticket, and a M1A Loaded model would buy you real estate out to 800 yards at least with the right glass if you want serious punchage. Yeah, they can run huge dollars, but it's a better investment than cheap women and expensive liquor in the long run.

Im already ahead of ya already looked at a 7.62 mini 14 carbine its got a big price tag but they also offer the .223 version which is a little cheaper gonna save my pennies and gonna get one. And as for me shooting well i got the highest score of my Police Academy at the range with my borrowed .40 Barretta 96 i got a 277 out of 280 possible points graduated Expert marksman and i got the paperwork to prove it. Ive been shooting pistols since i was 12 years old my family was kinda into guns :lol: they funny part was the FireFighter (me) beat all the former military and police men at the range the day i qualified and to piss them off even more i wore my local FD shirt and hat while i did it

 

[Stendec]

I've had multiple Minis over the years, all in 5.56, and they will serve you well. My main recommendation would be to stick to factory Ruger 20 round magazines, which have been openly available for a while now. When Ruger was restricting their sales, the market was flooded with third party magazines, and it was tough finding ones that were reliable enough for LE work.

 

[Mark C.]

The Mini-14 is certainly a nice rifle, but for the price, I'd chip in just a bit more and go with the AR platform. The prices have dropped considerably and you'll get better accuracy, the ability to chamber 5.56 (Mini-14 is only .223), much cheaper mags, more customization options, and the ability to add optics much easier. And for some reason, every Mini I've ever shot has a tremendous muzzle blast. Just my .02 from years of shooting, competing, and selling.

 

[Station 3]

Will do on the Mini 14.


Check this out the Mexican cartels made a FAKE police unit clone unit if u will and were smuggling in drugs in it. It was a fully loaded Webb County Sherrifs unit fully marked with light bar siren u name it. It also was being driven by a Mexican national wearing a fake uniform and fake badge imitating the one of the sherrifs office. It was spotted by Border patrol unit which got suspicous of the sheriffs office unit since it was Way Way out of its jursidiction they then pulled it over and discoverd the large load of Marijuana and that it was a fake sherrifs unit.


This has been happening for a while but i finally found a video about it. It is in spanish but u do not need to know spanish to see the pictures :lol: this did not happen anywhere close to my jurisdiction this was about a 2 hour drive from me but i thought it was kinda bold what they are doing now a days to get past the LEOs to smuggle in drugs


Video with plenty of pics